OK...so I am alittle behind [ am not have ....shut up! ]

You know how it goes, life throws you curve balls - yada yada yada...anyway I am back and I see we have much to discuss....

The first three episodes of Season Five - which might I add, I am loving so far....

Episode 5.1 : Sympathy For The Devil
* Briefly, we pick right up where we left off in Season Four. Our boys are standing there, together - Sammy has finally seen the truth of the situation and Dean has killed, with relish. Ruby - and the floor of the old church begins to open. They both know whats happening: Lucifer is about to emerge. Then *ZAP* they are on a plane, God knows where [literally?] and they are spared coming face to face with the Lord of Lies..... They dont know why, they dont know who saved them. They seek out Bobby and then go to their "prophet" Chuck to try and get some answers. There they learn that Cass was blown to Kingdon Come by the archangel - but that revelation is short lived cause Cas appears just in time to whisk the boys away just as Zach is trying to strong arm Dean in to allowing Micheal to use his body as a vessel and so put Lucifer back in hell. And how did Cas survive ? Who put our heroes on the plane?

Lastly...in this episode we finally meet the object of our nightmares, The Devil. But this is not your mama;s red skinned, horned head Lucifer - NO! This is a soft spoken, seemingly caring individual who really just wants what's best for you....or so he makes the man he uses as his meatsuit believe. He is afterall, first and foremost an angel....

Episode 5.2: Good God Y'All

Cas tells the boys he believes God saved them all and decides he must go and find Him - Logical sense Dean has decided not to allow Micheal to take him and use his body to destroy Lucifer, God is the only one who can really take care of the mess -but where to look?. Meanwhile, the boys agree to help an old friend of Bobbys' who in a frantic plea for aide advises the town hes in is overrun with demons. Or is it? Our first glimpse of one of the four horsemen, WAR - he has used his powers to make the townspeople turn on each other thinking they see demons when really its just their neighbors- its a real bloodbath. Happily we do get to see Jo and Ellen again altho they dont seem to stick around for the next couple episodes. And Wars steed? lol a red mustang...I liked that.

Episode 5.3: Free To Be You and Me

Sadness....the boys split up. Sam tells Dean he needs to quit hunting, he's a liability and needs to regroup. Unfortunately, Dean agrees and ends up teaming with Castiel in search of the Archangel [who turns out to be somewhat of a Dick by the way] thinking he knows where God can be found. In the meantime, Sammy tries to blend back in to society, keeping a low profile as a dishwasher for some hole in the wall bar. strangely he keeps having dreams of his old love long dead who tries to convince him he has a destiny he is ignoring. Meanwhile, Dean and his new sidekick trap the Archangel in hopes of discovering the whereabouts of God only to find out that the Archangel, Raphael was apparently a sympathizer with the rogue angels who wanted the apocolypse in the first place. The only revelation he has to offer is that God is dead.

Sammy has his own problems as his old life comes back to haunt him not only by Jessica appearing in his bed, but by hunters who wander in to the bar after talking to Bobby. They out Sammy trying to enlist his help with a demon problem they plan to handle. Sammy refuses offering no real explanation and the hunters leave. However the demon problem they thought they could handle was overwhelming and lives were lost. Taunting the hunters, a captured demon delights in telling them the story of Sam and his "drug addiction". They return to the bar and try and force Sammy in to drinking demon blood so he will "hulk" out and rid them of the black eyed hoarde that gutted their comrade. Its a tense moment as they force demon blood into Sams mouth but he manages not to swallow and eventually escapes.


Whew.... ok so I left out alot of fun details and clever remarks but I think i got the jest of it down. Lets go from here....

we will give it a few days before we get to this latest episode and so far my favorite but until then lets hear what you liked, disliked or any thoughts you may have....for instance...the necklace.

*smiles*

sand

Thanks for posting this Sand. For you.

Well, now we know my prediction for the S5 premiere was wrong.

I will admit after the last 2 episodes (5.05 and 5.06), Season 5 is starting to grow on me.

I like how they made Lucifer sympathetic, but even saying that "he won't lie or manipulate" is in itself, a lie. He's already lied to his new meatsuit by taking on the form of his dead wife; and to Sam when he took on the form of Jessica. But he's definitely the perfect Paradise Lost version of Lucifer and that's a great addition to the show.

Couldn't be more proud of Dean for not giving in to terrorist tactics trying to turn him into a meatsuit.
New Prediction: If Dean is "Michael's Sword", I think he may be able to find a way to defeat Lucifer on his own without the interference of the angels. In fact, here's my prediction (and HOPE) for the season: The Winchesters will defeat both the Angels and the Demons, end the apocalypse that BOTH sides started, and in doing so, prove that humankind is worth saving.

5.2 - Could Cas be more clueless than he already is? There's something he knows that he's not telling Dean, and it's got me worried as hell. (I think I know who really brought him back, and I think he does too - and it ain't God, y'all.)

LOVE that Ellen, Jo and Rufus are back. LOVE that Ellen told Dean he needs to put her on speed dial. LOVE the mustang the horseman was driving, though it looked like a 65 and 65s didn't come in that particular shade of red.
The actor that played War was great, even if it was reminiscent of Charmed when they had the 4 horsemen episode. I'm looking forward to seeing the appearance of the other three, and hoping Dean finds a use for that ring.

5.3 - HATE that the boys split up.

Sam was doing what he always does. Running away. I think Lucifer made a crucial mistake in appearing to Sam and reminding him of that. That was Sam's wake up call (Dean's comes in the next episode, but they both needed one to get to the BEST episode - 5.05, where they get back together )

I don't think Raphael is merely a sympathizer for the other angels. I think he (just hopefully NOT Michael ) is their leader. What saddens me is that Raphael is seen as "the angel of healing" (paraphrased from Wikipedia) and he's the one who could help Bobby, but instead he threatens Dean with his own "imagination" compared to what Zach did. Yet another clue as to how ruthless and heartless the angels actually are.

As for the other hunters and what they did to Sam... since when do hunters listen to demons??? At least Sam proved to himself that he can fight even his addiction.

And, of course, you can never go wrong with shirtless Sammy.
That was a nice bonus for the episode right there.

And lastly, my thoughts on the necklace include 5.04 "The End." IF Castiel was telling the truth about it being able to find God, why didn't FutureDean have it on?

They obviously gave up the search for God by then, so Dean would have wanted it back. I think Bobby is suspicious of that claim as well. Considering the necklace originally came from him as a gift for a young boy to give his father, don't you think Bobby would have done his research on it and if he even suspected there was anything special about it, he would have locked it away in a curse box? Once again, just don't believe Castiel is telling everything he knows. Guess we'll find out this season, since his storyline ends with season 5.

I can honestly say I'm looking forward now to finding out. (Oh, and I've decided to go Spoiler Free this season as much as possible. )

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2009 08:29PM by Mattie.

...a couple thoughts on your ideas Matt,

The Necklace..... I noticed that too - about future Dean. Honestly, that made me think more than ever it wasnt a future vision but more of some trumped up fantasy/hallucination to try and convince Dean he should relent....

there were other things about it that made me feel that way. The over the top portrayal of Cas as some bong totin love guru amd pf course Sammy....no way! I dont care how far down he falls, there is no way he would agree to to that. I cant see it.

And on a side note: Ok Kripke...we get it! Theres a bunch of angels who think God is dead and they are doing their own thing....could we see a couple other good ones? Besides Cas? Please? Or is that your evil plan, making us feel as lost and hopeless as supposedly they are? All you had to do to accomplish that was to keep the boys feuding and apart. oops! I HAVE HOPE !!!!!

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Mattie
And lastly, my thoughts on the necklace include 5.04 "The End." IF Castiel was telling the truth about it being able to find God, why didn't FutureDean have it on? El Diablo

They obviously gave up the search for God by then, so Dean would have wanted it back. I think Bobby is suspicious of that claim as well. Considering the necklace originally came from him as a gift for a young boy to give his father, don't you think Bobby would have done his research on it and if he even suspected there was anything special about it, he would have locked it away in a curse box? Once again, just don't believe Castiel is telling everything he knows. Guess we'll find out this season, since his storyline ends with season 5.

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sandscaper
...a couple thoughts on your ideas Matt,

The Necklace..... I noticed that too - about future Dean. Honestly, that made me think more than ever it wasnt a future vision but more of some trumped up fantasy/hallucination to try and convince Dean he should relent....

Ok my 2 cents on the necklace! seems how its all I can give myself enough time to think about. . .and i just *love* it so im really upset Dean doesn't have it back yet! although, in my opinion Dean should have asked for it back more, i mean he "feels naked without it"!! he wouldnt just forget about it, if someone took my necklaces away from me I'd be asking them to return them every time I saw them or got a chance to talk to them. . .ok now that thats out of the way. . .

So I agree with Mattie, that they've obviously given up on the search for god by 2014 and future Dean could have had it back. . .BUT Future Dean did everything within his power basically to push Sam away. He didn't so much as call him to check up on him, said they hadn't talked, or seen each other (sorry I'm a little fuzzy on which. . .) in 5 years. Honestly, if Cas would have offered the necklace back to Dean, in his future state of mind, I don't think that Dean would have wanted it back. It would have been a reminder of Sam, and his love for his brother. Like Dean said in the end they keep each other human. Future Dean was as far from "human" as he could get. . .for the most part anyway. I don't think he would have wanted the reminder of Sam and his love for him, it would have made him more human. I think it would have hindered his ability to "do his job" and "save the world" by continuing with the plan to kill Lucifer while he was using Sam as a vessel while he had the necklace and the reminder of what it stands for basically weighing on his mind.

I also agree with the fact that Bobby seems very suspicious with the whole necklace being the "EMF detector" for god basically. I mean come on he's Bobby! He definitely would have checked into the necklace before giving it to Sam to give to John, and I highly doubt he would ignore the fact that it could possibly find god. And he would have made sure to find out *everything* he could about the necklace. If he had an inkling of an idea (why do people say inkling anyway!?!) that it had anywhere near that type of power he would have locked it up in one of those curse boxes. (yea like Mattie said sorry I'm repeating ideas here).

however I do agree with Sand who said she didn't think it was actually the future because Sam wouldn't say yes to Lucifer. I don't believe Sam would ever say yes to Lucifer because even while he was all juiced up on demon blood and out for revenge. . .he was hoping to stop the Apocalypse and stop Lucifer from rising. And When Lucifer came to him while he was separated from Dean and said he was his vessel he could have given in right then and there, granted they weren't separated for that long but still. . .he's also been great at showing his strength and resistance to drinking the demon blood again, he wouldn't Say yes. . .I don't care how long they were separated. His whole deal was not wanting Lucifer to rise and stopping the apocalypse, saying yes would ruin everything, and he sounded pretty sincere when he said he'd die before saying yes, granted so did Lucifer when saying he'd just bring him back, I still think Sam would prevail with his intent of not becoming his vessel.

However I do see where Zachariah would have been able to easily pull this off as the future (if it really isn't that is) by having Sam say yes, it is pretty believable. I mean If Sam did die instead of saying yes, and was brought back. . .repeating this several times would make someone want to just give in don't you think? I mean Dean said no for 30 years in hell before finally saying yes to torturing someone else. But he DID say yes. How many people if just shown a glimpse of Dean in hell torturing souls would actually believe it? If this glimpse was shown to Sam by say Ruby or another Demon everyone would have the same right to say 'well it wasn't real it was just Sam being lied to because Dean would never say yes' I guess it all depends on how serious Lucifer was about bringing Sam back and how long hed go through with that plan until he would finally give up. If Dean wasn't there to keep Sam on the "right path" or to just give him enough support to want to continue on the right path Sam would never say no, but if Dean wasn't there and actually pushed him away telling him they are better off on their own and without each other I think Sam would maybe end up breaking if he got pushed to the breaking point. So I do think it is a believable future with the way things were going when Zachariah launched Dean into the future, although I do think Sam would have been strong enough to keep saying no, its just how much he could take until he hit breaking point.

ok so thats more than just the necklace and is probably pretty redundant sorry about that guys, multitasking is not good while trying to write a post with composed thoughts I'll have more on the rest of all of this at a later point hopefully when ive had more time to think all this through and actually watch more than half of the episodes. . .

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Sand, I agree that this wasn't a "real" future, but one concocted by Zach to show Dean what could happen given his current choices. Luckily Dean caught onto that quickly himself, and changed the one most important flaw in Zach's potential "future" - his split with Sam. As for Cas' role in future events, that fits in with my theory on him as well. I believe Cas is still following Zach's orders just as he always was. He's a company man through and through. Right now he's on probation with his job, and because of that, willing to do and say whatever he's told, just to keep his "job" (meaning, remain an angel). He finally came out and admitted his feelings for humans in the future episode too when he said "I used to belong to a much better club." I think Zach placed Cas strategically in the future so that Dean would trust him as an ally (and did no one else notice that Zach found out where Dean was staying right when Cas did? I think the "human informant" was just a red herring.) So I don't agree that Cas is a "good angel." I think ALL the angels, while maybe not evil, are just plain indifferent to humans, if not having an air of superiority over them. Which is why my HOPE continues to lie squarely with the Winchesters and the Winchesters alone.

Nan! Thanks for adding your 2 cents! I think it's worth much more than that. It's good to know someone agrees with at least some of what I feel (the angel part, notwithstanding ). Yes, Dean recognized that his "future" self had become far from human (could that have actually been Zach?? maybe that's why he didn't have the necklace or Dean's ring, for that matter. his powers enabled him to look like "Dean" but not be wearing what 'belonged' to Dean?)

I think the brothers are doing the right thing to keep each other on the right path, as you said. As for Sam saying 'yes' to Lucifer, he personally witnessed the torture Dean experienced saying 'no' to being Michael's meatsuit (sorry angels, a meatsuit is a meatsuit, no matter what pretty phrases you give it, I won't call it a vessel). However, I can think of a few scenarios that would lead to Sam saying yes. Primarily, being presented as "say yes, and the battle will be over more quickly, saving the most human lives." That is, after all, what the brothers are about and always will be - Saving people, hunting things...

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I really must check these threads more often.You all always give me loads to think about.Ok...Hand off the gun, Mattie? 'Cause I am going out on a limb here....I don't believe that Cas is evil. He has disagreed with the "Angel" status quo before....and the idea of him in the orgy is too funny in itself...much less as a pill poppin' guru....I'm not saying that he is not capable of being misguided...my jury is still out on that..but there is something inside me that won't believe that all the Angels are snobs and hate mankind...and I thought it very clever of Satan/Sam proclaiming that all he did was to "love God and refuse to worship Man." (Since when did God ever tell anyone to worship anyone other than Him?) The perfect lie always contains just the right amount of truth....Satan isn't called the Father of Lies for nothin'. As for this season, I am really tired of the Appocalypse storyline....hope it is over soon. I think Kripke bit off more than he could chew when he tackled it. I am ready for the Boys to be the nomad hunters that made us love them in the first place. And if he's run out of Urban legends....I will personally send Mr. Kripke a few news stories I have been saving... for the place to vent, Matt....

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Hey Blue, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. Nah, I won't shoot this time. I'm on the fence about whether the angels are "good" or "evil". For now I'm sticking with "indifferent."

My understanding of the direction they're going with Lucifer isn't from the Bible but it's in fact, from literature and Paradise Lost (where I "think" God did tell Lucifer he must bow down to man).

Now that we're caught up to more episodes and know at least a little bit more about the angel family (thanks to the appearance of Gabriel as the Trickster), I'm starting to really think they are going to stay with the parallel of the Winchesters and Angels...... to keep the Angels as "good guys" too?
I don't know how well that's going to work, but we'll see. The whole thing has me ready to go back and read my classic literature, including Joseph Campbell and now Paradise Lost. I think I've got Dante's Inferno on video somewhere too - does it count if it's being performed in the mud?

I'm with you on one thing -- Get our boys back on the road and get the apocalypse over with already!!!
Kripke promised he'd wrap this storyline up this season. Here's hoping he keeps that promise at least.

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Did you see, that Dean didn't have a ring and wristband on his hand in tenth episode? Do you know everyone why?
Don't anybody have video with highlights of first and second series, where can we listen song called "One Week" from the band named "Barenaked Ladies".
Thank you.

For Blue: I don't think the apocalypse storyline will be over soon. This season seems to be about apocalypse. And I don't think Supernatural can come back to what it was before. Too many things happened between Sam and Dean as "ordinary" hunters and them as a part of apocalypse. And I don't think Kripke has run out of legends. In my opinion, he only wanted his story to go another way.

For Mattie: I think there was only one angel who I liked, or did not mind much. And it was Gabriel.

I agree with you that Kripke does not really follow Bible but he takes something from it and then modifies it according to what he needs for his story. I think this could be one reason why some believers (is there a better word for people who believe?) seem to have problems with accepting his views.

And I have to tell you the same I said to Blue. I don't think Kripke will leave apocalypse storyline. And I still believe there will not be another season. Because Jensen and Jared both got engaged to their girlfriends and BuddyTV's observation has some sense. That it might mean they settled down because there will not be any more Supernatural. I am sorry but it is really time to wrap everything up and move on. Before Supernatural becomes a bad show. I don't want that.

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