Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 20, 2008 11:05PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 21, 2008 01:23PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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sandscaper
It seems the line between the two opposing forces is starting to blur for me....
First theres Ruby : Witch turned demon with a soft spot for the Winchesters. Well, I cant fault her for that. But seriously...is she a good guy or a bad guy? I am leaning toward good. I dont fully understand her motives - I dont know that any of us do, but none the less, shes done more for the boys than anyone else - well, anyone not human that is.
Then you have the Angels.... I like Castiel - I was in awe of the episode that introduced him but as the story progresses, he almost seems to be taking on more human qualities...and now that his "Dogma" buddy has appeared on the scene, its got me asking, "Who are the good guys here?"
All right I know...breaking the seals and allowing Lucifer to come out and play would be ...well, bad...but what part do 'we" humans play in this? Are our souls just fodder to fuel the fight?
I know I am rambling....[I blame my undisciplined thoughts on seeing Dean shirtless-finally...again. and dont get me started on the tears....damn that boy can cry]
I'd like to know your thoughts....help me organize mine, cause I gotta tell you, my head is spinning.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 23, 2008 01:03PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 23, 2008 02:40PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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sandscaper
I did like the image the Angel presented when she talked about loosin her Grace...a comet splitting apart, falling to earth. She is one piece and her Grace the other....and where the Grace falls, life is created.... I thought that was lovely.....
This thought came to me as well....Castiel...and his growing humanity. It seemed when he first appeared he was cold and alittle frightening I think. But with each episode, he seems to be more human to me...caring about the Winchesters, humanity....that talk he had with Dean on the parkbench... Anyway, Anna (was it anna?) she said that there were only 4 angels who had actually seen God... I am wondering if Castiel is one of them. I mean, he has to be getting his orders from someone - I dont know....like I said my head is spinning with this storyline.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 25, 2008 01:35PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
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sandscaper
It seems the line between the two opposing forces is starting to blur for me....
First theres Ruby : Witch turned demon with a soft spot for the Winchesters. Well, I cant fault her for that. But seriously...is she a good guy or a bad guy? I am leaning toward good. I dont fully understand her motives - I dont know that any of us do, but none the less, shes done more for the boys than anyone else - well, anyone not human that is.
Then you have the Angels.... I like Castiel - I was in awe of the episode that introduced him but as the story progresses, he almost seems to be taking on more human qualities...and now that his "Dogma" buddy has appeared on the scene, its got me asking, "Who are the good guys here?"
All right I know...breaking the seals and allowing Lucifer to come out and play would be ...well, bad...but what part do 'we" humans play in this? Are our souls just fodder to fuel the fight?
I know I am rambling....[I blame my undisciplined thoughts on seeing Dean shirtless-finally...again. and dont get me started on the tears....damn that boy can cry]
I'd like to know your thoughts....help me organize mine, cause I gotta tell you, my head is spinning.
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Ursula
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sandscaper
I did like the image the Angel presented when she talked about loosin her Grace...a comet splitting apart, falling to earth. She is one piece and her Grace the other....and where the Grace falls, life is created.... I thought that was lovely.....
This thought came to me as well....Castiel...and his growing humanity. It seemed when he first appeared he was cold and alittle frightening I think. But with each episode, he seems to be more human to me...caring about the Winchesters, humanity....that talk he had with Dean on the parkbench... Anyway, Anna (was it anna?) she said that there were only 4 angels who had actually seen God... I am wondering if Castiel is one of them. I mean, he has to be getting his orders from someone - I dont know....like I said my head is spinning with this storyline.
Yea I only seen that last night....Yea I thought it was a nice way of putting it too.
Huh yea I noticed that too. Yea thats probably why I didn't like him much at the start...completely threw my theory of angels out the window(so to speak). Thats true...I mean the look on his face when Dean and Anna said their goodbyes. I remember that talk too. Yes it's Anna...I was a little surprised about that too. I doubt it didn't Anna imply she was higher up than Castiel....She didn't see him so I doubt Castiel seen him but like you said who's giving the orders then?...Mine too...I don't get why they left Dean in Hell for so long?
This storyline is getting bigger and bigger. I mean you have the angels battling the Demons, fair enough but where does Dean and Sam fit into it...Sam with his powers and that...yea I get that but how can the two of them be any better in this battle?...it's like humans being a pawn in this...Uriel is hates the two of them...I don't get why because their all suppose to be on the same side....the more I think about it the more friggin questions I have.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 25, 2008 02:00PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Mattie
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sandscaper
It seems the line between the two opposing forces is starting to blur for me....
First theres Ruby : Witch turned demon with a soft spot for the Winchesters. Well, I cant fault her for that. But seriously...is she a good guy or a bad guy? I am leaning toward good. I dont fully understand her motives - I dont know that any of us do, but none the less, shes done more for the boys than anyone else - well, anyone not human that is.
Then you have the Angels.... I like Castiel - I was in awe of the episode that introduced him but as the story progresses, he almost seems to be taking on more human qualities...and now that his "Dogma" buddy has appeared on the scene, its got me asking, "Who are the good guys here?"
All right I know...breaking the seals and allowing Lucifer to come out and play would be ...well, bad...but what part do 'we" humans play in this? Are our souls just fodder to fuel the fight?
I know I am rambling....[I blame my undisciplined thoughts on seeing Dean shirtless-finally...again. and dont get me started on the tears....damn that boy can cry]
I'd like to know your thoughts....help me organize mine, cause I gotta tell you, my head is spinning.Quote
Mattie
Hey Tron, trying to gather my thoughts on it as well. On Ruby, I'm leaning toward "bad with her own agenda." Not sure if this has come out yet, so...
looky! spoiler vision!
I personally think that Ruby is going with what she thinks will be the winning side - the Winchesters. Imagine what rank she would have in the demon world if SHE is the one controlling Sam's puppet strings? That's what I think her GOAL is anyway. Not that she'll achieve it...
I haven't come out and stated my opinion on the angels yet, but, yeah, can't stand Castiel. I think HE is doing the same thing to Dean that Ruby is to Sam - wanting to be the one pulling the puppet strings. At least with Uriel, what you see is what you get. Castiel's got a hidden agenda in there somewhere and I DON'T trust him. So far Anna's the one GOOD angel here. Would love to see her come back (then again, the girl quoted me more than once, so still a little bit freaked over that! ::o )
What part do humans play? We're the pawns. Hopefully the Winchesters will find those puppet strings and cut them (meaning GET RID OF RUBY AND CASTIEL FOR GOOD!) so they can take control of the game again. I think they're our only hope considering neither side seems to care whether "humans" survive the war.
See thats what I was afraid of. (yes I HAD to look at the spoiler...first time I have this season, it's killing me...I need to know whats happening). I don't trust Castiel either.
Yep thought so. That's true, our boys will come true for us...I hope.Quote
Ursula
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sandscaper
I did like the image the Angel presented when she talked about loosin her Grace...a comet splitting apart, falling to earth. She is one piece and her Grace the other....and where the Grace falls, life is created.... I thought that was lovely.....
This thought came to me as well....Castiel...and his growing humanity. It seemed when he first appeared he was cold and alittle frightening I think. But with each episode, he seems to be more human to me...caring about the Winchesters, humanity....that talk he had with Dean on the parkbench... Anyway, Anna (was it anna?) she said that there were only 4 angels who had actually seen God... I am wondering if Castiel is one of them. I mean, he has to be getting his orders from someone - I dont know....like I said my head is spinning with this storyline.
Yea I only seen that last night....Yea I thought it was a nice way of putting it too.
Huh yea I noticed that too. Yea thats probably why I didn't like him much at the start...completely threw my theory of angels out the window(so to speak). Thats true...I mean the look on his face when Dean and Anna said their goodbyes. I remember that talk too. Yes it's Anna...I was a little surprised about that too. I doubt it didn't Anna imply she was higher up than Castiel....She didn't see him so I doubt Castiel seen him but like you said who's giving the orders then?...Mine too...I don't get why they left Dean in Hell for so long?
This storyline is getting bigger and bigger. I mean you have the angels battling the Demons, fair enough but where does Dean and Sam fit into it...Sam with his powers and that...yea I get that but how can the two of them be any better in this battle?...it's like humans being a pawn in this...Uriel is hates the two of them...I don't get why because their all suppose to be on the same side....the more I think about it the more friggin questions I have.
The real problem I'm having with the storyline is the number of plotholes it seems to have. Others might see it as unanswered questions, but to me it's actual holes. Not sure how or if they'll be able to patch them. Which is disappointing.
The "warrior angels" thing, I get. Castiel just isn't much of a warrior to me. He's too weak. He contradicts himself every time he speaks. (am I seriously the ONLY one who didn't see "the look"? *sighs* whatever)
If this is where Kripke intended to go all along (I have my doubts on that but it's a whole other issue), I think he must have set it up early in S3 with all the episodes hammering in the fact that humans are just as evil, if not more so, than demons. We're the biggest shade of gray there is. Maybe that's what Uriel "hates" about us (and HOW can he hate if angels have no feelings? see? plothole). To him and others like him, there is no gray. There is only blind faith and obedience. In that regard, give me demons any day.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 18, 2008 11:19AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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What part do humans play? We're the pawns. Hopefully the Winchesters will find those puppet strings and cut them (meaning GET RID OF RUBY AND CASTIEL FOR GOOD!) so they can take control of the game again. I think they're our only hope considering neither side seems to care whether "humans" survive the war.[/color]
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The real problem I'm having with the storyline is the number of plotholes it seems to have. Others might see it as unanswered questions, but to me it's actual holes. Not sure how or if they'll be able to patch them. Which is disappointing.
The "warrior angels" thing, I get. Castiel just isn't much of a warrior to me. He's too weak. He contradicts himself every time he speaks. (am I seriously the ONLY one who didn't see "the look"? *sighs* whatever)
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HOW can he hate if angels have no feelings? see? plothole.
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To him and others like him, there is no gray. There is only blind faith and obedience. In that regard, give me demons any day.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 18, 2008 04:57PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 18, 2008 05:19PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Mattie
Hey Tron, trying to gather my thoughts on it as well. On Ruby, I'm leaning toward "bad with her own agenda." Not sure if this has come out yet, so...
looky! spoiler vision!
I personally think that Ruby is going with what she thinks will be the winning side - the Winchesters. Imagine what rank she would have in the demon world if SHE is the one controlling Sam's puppet strings? That's what I think her GOAL is anyway. Not that she'll achieve it...
I haven't come out and stated my opinion on the angels yet, but, yeah, can't stand Castiel. I think HE is doing the same thing to Dean that Ruby is to Sam - wanting to be the one pulling the puppet strings. At least with Uriel, what you see is what you get. Castiel's got a hidden agenda in there somewhere and I DON'T trust him. So far Anna's the one GOOD angel here. Would love to see her come back (then again, the girl quoted me more than once, so still a little bit freaked over that! ::o )
What part do humans play? We're the pawns. Hopefully the Winchesters will find those puppet strings and cut them (meaning GET RID OF RUBY AND CASTIEL FOR GOOD!) so they can take control of the game again. I think they're our only hope considering neither side seems to care whether "humans" survive the war.Quote
Ursula
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sandscaper
I did like the image the Angel presented when she talked about loosin her Grace...a comet splitting apart, falling to earth. She is one piece and her Grace the other....and where the Grace falls, life is created.... I thought that was lovely.....
This thought came to me as well....Castiel...and his growing humanity. It seemed when he first appeared he was cold and alittle frightening I think. But with each episode, he seems to be more human to me...caring about the Winchesters, humanity....that talk he had with Dean on the parkbench... Anyway, Anna (was it anna?) she said that there were only 4 angels who had actually seen God... I am wondering if Castiel is one of them. I mean, he has to be getting his orders from someone - I dont know....like I said my head is spinning with this storyline.
The real problem I'm having with the storyline is the number of plotholes it seems to have. Others might see it as unanswered questions, but to me it's actual holes. Not sure how or if they'll be able to patch them. Which is disappointing.
The "warrior angels" thing, I get. Castiel just isn't much of a warrior to me. He's too weak. He contradicts himself every time he speaks. (am I seriously the ONLY one who didn't see "the look"? *sighs* whatever)
If this is where Kripke intended to go all along (I have my doubts on that but it's a whole other issue), I think he must have set it up early in S3 with all the episodes hammering in the fact that humans are just as evil, if not more so, than demons. We're the biggest shade of gray there is. Maybe that's what Uriel "hates" about us (and HOW can he hate if angels have no feelings? see? plothole). To him and others like him, there is no gray. There is only blind faith and obedience. In that regard, give me demons any day.
OK Hope I didnt screw up formatting - trying to edit a bit lol - good girl!-
Lets face it....God is a low profile kind of guy....somehow, somewhere Dean caught his {her?} eye - lol-maybe ....just maybe God has decided his "Angels" are too unfeeling or too much like Demons...Uriel in my opinion is a jerk. ...maybe God is trying to teach them a lesson and we are the teachers or rather in this case Dean and Sam are....Castiel did say that he was specifically told to follow Deans orders...why is that? Castiel thought it was because it was a test for dean...maybe it was a test for the Angels... would God do that... I think so.... why not? after all our "suffering" on earth is trivial compared to living an eternity in either Heaven or Hell - so if a few of us get in the way well, we get rewarded in the end...
Again...this is just a huge topic that can go off in so many tangents depending on what you get out of the episode....
I still love the Angels theme... Cant wait for more.
TRON ! HA! lol
sand
Smith & Wesson : The original point and click interface
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 12:50PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 06:38PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 07:51PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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sandscaper
Oh FRELL no ! lol...trust me I take no offense in opposing opinions! I also freely admit my religious knowledge is somewhat lacking...
I view this show as strictly entertainment and with that said I feel this way, there had to be more to the story than simply sending the boys out week after week huntin down monsters - otherwise, all you have is Gilligans island with zombies! and lets face it, even Dean couldnt eat that much coconut pie! LOL ( MATTIE !!!! Wheres our PIE smilie !! LOL )
I love Kripkes storytelling....yes I get fristrated from time to time with various characters, alive and dead. But its all part of being a fan of the show.
As far as what will happen only God [ well and Kripke ] knows.... but I do like a good debate and will promise to do my best to annoy the heck out of someone as "nice" as you
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 11:07PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 23, 2008 12:53PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Shadow81
Hello to you Sand & Ursala(FYI love the signature...poor chickens.)
Ok I'm glad I won't piss any of you off.
I'm creative person, and could honestly see the show still dealing with the Lucifer/Lillith Plot, without God and Angels showing up. But hey they're here now what are you gonna do.
When God first showed up I was more concerned that I'd have to deal with an All powerful, all loving, all knowing Super being with and ultimate plan. Now In my opinion that would be 100X more Boring than a monster of the Week.
Example
Season Finale
Lucifer: Hey God Give me Dominion over Heaven and Earth.
God: Since I'm an all knowing All powerful superbeing I knew you would escape and show up here so I created a trap door just under your feet and now you will be trapped in Hell...again.
God Pulls Lever
As he falls away Lucifer Yells
Lucifer: Curses! I would have gotten away with it if wasn't for those darn kids and your Ultimate Plan!
Lucifer falls down to hell again and wonders why there weren't more zombies on Gilligans island.
God goes back to crossword puzzle, not that it matters he knows all the answers anyway.
The previous scenario doesn't inovlve either a Sam or Dean and let's face it thats tragic.
Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case, God as far as I can tell is neither all knowing or all powerful, Something that both keeps things interesting and can still keep both parties happy...hopefully...maybe...ah heck someone's still gonna be ticked. Plus Castiel is starting to Grow on me. I think the show has started to take an interesting route and ask "What does it mean to be human?", but that could all be in my head.
Now Here is a funny Conundrum for you. Why would God Seal Satan away with 6000 Seals but you only have to break 66 of them to be free. In my mind thats like putting 100 Locks on a door and only needing to open 3 to get in. Once again God's logic is lost on me.
Forgot to talk about Mary and her Angels, I'd think it would be silly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she meant angels are watching you quite Literally. Oh and here's another random thought, not sure this is the best thread though, but I was suddenly struck as to why the Angels may want Dean, I know Uriel said that there were others. So, I thought What has Dean done that no others have? He killed Azazel. I'm wondering if the show (following hebrew tradition) has Azazel being one of the Rebellious Fallen Angels. Kinda like you have to kill an evil angel as some kind of prerequisite to killing Lucifer. Not sure why or how, but could be interesting.
Lillith Lillith Lillith
is her name forbidden?
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 24, 2008 12:42PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 25, 2008 10:26PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Mattie
I had a reply started the other day when my computer crashed. Which was probably a good thing since I think I was completely contradicting myself anyway.
Welcome Shadow! Nope, I doubt you offend anyone here. It's a pretty easy-going bunch (*glances around at the others* not one word about my temper! )
I would point out more of the plotholes but can't think of any right at the moment. Pretty much any episode written by Jeremy Carver or the new writers this season are full of them though.
I think you've put far more thought into which angels have seen god than I have, but I'm 99% certain it wouldn't have been either Castiel or Uriel. Both worked for Anna prior to 1985 and she hadn't seen him, though she was higher ranked. And though it still looks to me like Uriel is higher than Castiel, they revealed he isn't. I think Uriel goes on his "faith" - which I still call blind obedience myself. But I guess if he hasn't seen god it would explain Castiel's "questioning."
I would be interested to know if Kripke is following along the lines of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series (the movie The Golden Compass was based on the first book). Interesting you mention Metatron. He's one of the characters in the books (and not a very good guy, though he is an angel). I don't want to give the ending of the trilogy away to anyone who hasn't read the books, but it is a very interesting (and completely different) view of angels and god than most people are used to. I highly recommend reading it.
Ula, I can't take to Castiel either - ok, that's putting it mildly. I can't stand him. And I certainly don't trust him. For me, he's Dean's equivalent of Ruby for Sam. The Winchesters don't need them and would be better off WITHOUT them.
(almost forgot to add - yep, it's forbidden here. I did that for Dean since the mention of that name.... well.... you can imagine )
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 26, 2008 03:16AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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sandscaper
OK...first of all...you guys are being all "scholarific" *that could be a made up word - deal with it* and let me remind you both this is Kripke we are talkin about here.....
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 26, 2008 10:58AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Mattie
I had a reply started the other day when my computer crashed. Which was probably a good thing since I think I was completely contradicting myself anyway.
Welcome Shadow! Nope, I doubt you offend anyone here. It's a pretty easy-going bunch (*glances around at the others* not one word about my temper! )
I would point out more of the plotholes but can't think of any right at the moment. Pretty much any episode written by Jeremy Carver or the new writers this season are full of them though.
I think you've put far more thought into which angels have seen god than I have, but I'm 99% certain it wouldn't have been either Castiel or Uriel. Both worked for Anna prior to 1985 and she hadn't seen him, though she was higher ranked. And though it still looks to me like Uriel is higher than Castiel, they revealed he isn't. I think Uriel goes on his "faith" - which I still call blind obedience myself. But I guess if he hasn't seen god it would explain Castiel's "questioning."
I would be interested to know if Kripke is following along the lines of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series (the movie The Golden Compass was based on the first book). Interesting you mention Metatron. He's one of the characters in the books (and not a very good guy, though he is an angel). I don't want to give the ending of the trilogy away to anyone who hasn't read the books, but it is a very interesting (and completely different) view of angels and god than most people are used to. I highly recommend reading it.
Ula, I can't take to Castiel either - ok, that's putting it mildly. I can't stand him. And I certainly don't trust him. For me, he's Dean's equivalent of Ruby for Sam. The Winchesters don't need them and would be better off WITHOUT them.
(almost forgot to add - yep, it's forbidden here. I did that for Dean since the mention of that name.... well.... you can imagine )
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 26, 2008 11:10AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Shadow81
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sandscaper
OK...first of all...you guys are being all "scholarific" *that could be a made up word - deal with it* and let me remind you both this is Kripke we are talkin about here.....
It's ok to make up words, English is a progressive language. Unfortunatly I can't help but be Scholarific, I come from a family that is just way too overeducated.
Don't worry I know what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with a guy who said there wouldn't be angels in the show and then Bam! here they are so he's a big fat stinking doodoo head until he stops lying and or the Angels aren't angels but Evil-Super-Demons-from-the-Nether-World.tm
As for your Castiel=God Theory,it's one of the more interesting theories I've heard and I don't have any evidence against it, but you yourself admitted it was a long shot. I don't think we have any evidence of this all being a dream of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that Sam has been Lucifer since the end of Season 2. And this is where I become a Scholarific Buzzkill. Absence of Evidence is well Evidence of Absence. But who knows I've been horrifically wrong before.
And we all remember we are dealing with the Doodoo head and his Friends from the corporate office, I'm willing to bet the end will be far more straight forward then any of would like. so that means Sam get's possessed by Lucifer and Dean dies to save him and all humanity and will either be resurrected by God again, or turned into an infant or some kind of rebirth motif and Sam and Ruby (who god also restored her humanity) will live happily ever after or something.
Honestly I'd be happy if they defeated Lucifer and Dean said "Well that was fun, let's go get some pie." and they drove the impala off into the sunset"
and Happy Day after Present Day!
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 29, 2008 12:44PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
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Shadow81
Don't worry I know what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with a guy who said there wouldn't be angels in the show and then Bam! here they are so he's a big fat stinking doodoo head until he stops lying and or the Angels aren't angels but Evil-Super-Demons-from-the-Nether-World.tm
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Shadow81
As for your Castiel=God Theory,it's one of the more interesting theories I've heard and I don't have any evidence against it, but you yourself admitted it was a long shot. I don't think we have any evidence of this all being a dream of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that Sam has been Lucifer since the end of Season 2. And this is where I become a Scholarific Buzzkill. Absence of Evidence is well Evidence of Absence. But who knows I've been horrifically wrong before.
And we all remember we are dealing with the Doodoo head and his Friends from the corporate office, I'm willing to bet the end will be far more straight forward then any of would like. so that means Sam get's possessed by Lucifer and Dean dies to save him and all humanity and will either be resurrected by God again, or turned into an infant or some kind of rebirth motif and Sam and Ruby (who god also restored her humanity) will live happily ever after or something.
Honestly I'd be happy if they defeated Lucifer and Dean said "Well that was fun, let's go get some pie." and they drove the impala off into the sunset"
and Happy Day after Present Day!
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 29, 2008 08:34PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Mattie
I'm trying to come up with a 'scholarific' answer but that just cracks me up too much. (oh, and Sand, I'm pretty sure nearly all the words in the dictionary were once made up words too )
Okay, seriously, I agree with you. More than once, EK has said things like "never say never" (as in his answers about whether Dean would really go to hell or not). If he had said that there, fine. But he didn't. Which leads me to believe we're NOT getting the story he originally envisioned. And THAT disappoints me more than anything.
Ummmmmm, no comment on the Castiel-as-god thing.
I'll just repeat myself - read the His Dark Materials trilogy. It has you wondering who's the good guy, who's the bad guy and just how and why do the "heroes" of the story fit into the overall scheme of good and evil. (in the case of the books, that would be the children, Lyra and Will) Sound familiar at all?
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 30, 2008 10:10AM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
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sandscaper
I do agree with you there, the story has changed from his original vision but thats the creative process at work....anytime you rewrite something one small addition can change the outcome of your original story - you make a change here and oh yeah that affects what happens to this character 5 months from now which means you need to change this character to interact with that character...its a paradox I think.
We know for instance he didnt like the way things were going with the "special Kids" which led us to the town of the battle royale and Sams death...and Dean selling his soul...
when that storyline changed it took us in to season three and the writers strike and the addition of the "girls" which turned out badly. I think frankly he was wingin it and doing rewrites from that point on.
So here we are....
And yes...the line drawn between bad guys and good guys seems muddled. Hence the name of this thread. I guess thats why I wondered if God was showing his angels and maybe his demons the goodness of love, heart and bravery by exposing them to Dean and Sam. Yes I said his Demons. After all when you think about it they are arent they? Lucifer didnt create them he doesnt have the power of creation even for unnatural things - Plus I still think that most of the demons at least the higher eschalon were once angels - like Lucifer ... my opinion. The lower ones well, hard to say...I know Ruby told Dean a story of being tortured for hundreds of years before having the ability or earning the right or strength to crawl out of hell....but who knows.
No there is no proof - there is no right or wrong here
Time will tell girls..... I love the debate tho ! LOL
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 31, 2008 04:15AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Mattie
I don't mind that the line between good and bad is getting muddled. I like that part, in fact (and was dearly HOPING that Castiel would turn out to be something so horribly evil that it would have every demon and angel and supernatural creature that came into contact with it turning to dust from fear. no such luck there). I won't mind if "god" is trying to teach his angels a lesson; or if he wants them around the Winchesters to show them what they SHOULD be but are NOT. That has no affect on the myth-arc in my mind, it's just a subtext.
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Mattie
What bothers me right now is the big picture. The angels are no longer a subtext, but have a direct effect on the outcome of the myth-arc. Which makes the story of the Winchesters suddenly second fiddle to the angels' battle of good vs. evil. (and the Winchesters themselves pawns, as I stated in the earlier post) When all is said and done and the series is over, I want to have a full, satisfied feeling like at the end of a good meal. I want to be able to say, "Now THAT was worth it!"
With this direction, I'm not getting that feeling.[/color]
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 31, 2008 08:01PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 01, 2009 04:50PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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sandscaper
Oh Lordy Lordy! Save me from these heathen views! lol ok...Where to start...deep breath....*grins*
*first a side note, Shadow....I read Anne Rice before it was trendy to do so and while you may not like her vision of vampires, you must agree the woman can paint an image in your head! Please! She is an exquisite writer who allows the reader to envision her words....truly, I loved reading her books*
OK enough of that....
I appreciate the fact that neither you nor matt (what about you U ? *smiles*) like the way things are going but....it still seems a natural progression to me - perhaps not originally intended but now unavoidable. The argument is too strong...if there is such evil then there should be such good. However, the muddlediness (ha! now I sound like a hobbit) presents itself in which is which and if the two are truly discernable, at least in the case of the angels/demons.
With the "death" of YED *and chg in managemnt /writers/writers strike* we were presented with season three.... A promising season, Deans last year having sold his soul to save sam....but while I enjoyed several of the episodes, I found myself unwowed by the overall feel of it. Then we come to the end, I truly thought Dean would be saved at the last minute - who knows how or at the very least we'd have a cliffhanger and find that he was saved in the beginning of Season four....
But alas, twas not so. Whatever "possessed" Kripke also sent Dean to Hell. So there we are. Dean in Hell and Sam teaming with his strongest ally *in his head* and friend/lover to learn and use the only power he has which he is convinced will provide Lilliths head on his plate. ...without Deans strength, encouragement , guidance what have you, Sam relies more and more on this demonic gift, even though he was clearly shown the outcome of its use in Season two.
So...we have the once "good" brother who prayed regularly relying on a demon because he ...what? lost his faith as well as his brother? and the "bad" brother who thru great love gave up his soul to be tortured eternally so that his brother would live.
I know you both know these facts but seriously what would you have Kripke do at this point? Have a demon save Dean? Let Dean claw his way out of hell when he himself admits he was on the verge of insanity? Or worse yet, make Dean a demon, posessing his old body which we all knew was dead - where could we go with that other than have Sam eventually exorcise him, perhaps loosinng his sanity in the process.....
No...this had to be girls....I tell you - we needed to see that there was at least a counterpoint...a light at the end of the tunnel. And right now, the light is dim...but I dont think it will stay that way. My fear has been that it will come down to brother against brother but I am not so sure of that anymore.... Now...stay with me here, I think its going to come down to the Brothers against the Demons/Angels...I think ones like Castiel and yes Ruby even, are learning maybe that there is something wrong with this fight. In different ways yes but still.
This I think is the big "lesson". I only hope the Winchesters wont be sacrificed in this endeavor. I cant shake te feeling that this all smacks of the ending of the series....
all right ...once again I have rambled - the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind? (young Frank *grins*)
Happy New Year !
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 12:27PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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sandscaper
Oh Lordy Lordy! Save me from these heathen views! lol ok...Where to start...deep breath....*grins*
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sandscaper
She is an exquisite writer who allows the reader to envision her words....truly, I loved reading her books*
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sandscaper
OK enough of that....
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sandscaper
The argument is too strong...if there is such evil then there should be such good.
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sandscaper
I know you both know these facts but seriously what would you have Kripke do at this point? Have a demon save Dean? Let Dean claw his way out of hell when he himself admits he was on the verge of insanity?
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sandscaper
No...this had to be girls....I tell you - we needed to see that there was at least a counterpoint...a light at the end of the tunnel.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 12:58PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Shadow81
Ok I'm might end up regretting this, but since y'all seem like reasonable folk I'll risk it. First and foremost, nothing personal and yes I know it's a just TV show and I should lighten up.
"If there is Good then there must be Evil." is a lousy argument and a logical fallacy. The Concepts of Good and Evil are just too subjective. Your just self confirming subjective words when you treat them as polar opposites. Why is "A" Good, cause it's not Evil. So Why is "A" not Evil, cause it's Good. Just saying Good=Good and Evil=Evil tells me nothing about the nature of either of them. I've heard some argue that you need "Balance". I think that creates a icky paradox, because no one should strive to be "Good". If I work hard to be "Good", but I know that doing so will create "Evil" is doing "Good" an "Evil" act?
I mean we seem to agree that Muddled is "Good", But using Muddled terms for as evidence for an argument is "Bad"...see muddled.
Which in my mind has and hopefully always will be the Brothers themselves. Though unobligated they still fought for humanity, and they always had their love for each other to get through the "darkness". As a viewer That was more then enough "Good" for me, so I see God as a useless addition.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 03:02PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Ursula
Ok ya got me confused now. If you ask me there is a bit of evil in everyone but with regards to the show and their demons they just have more evil in them.s
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 04:03PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: "I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Shadow81
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Ursula
Ok ya got me confused now. If you ask me there is a bit of evil in everyone but with regards to the show and their demons they just have more evil in them.s
My goal wasn't to confuse anyone, but I admit when it comes to describing abstract concepts I'm a better student then teacher. The main purpose of the post was to respond to the common arguments I have received here and in other places about my opinion about God being an active character in the Supernatural Universe.
To boil it down.
I state the opinion that adding God to the show was uninspired and an overall bad idea. I then try to give evidence for the reasons I believe this, not always successfully.
Folks often respond with the Following Counter Argument,adding God to the Show was fantastic, but also inevitable. And I tend to receive Two Common evidentiary points for this.
A. If there is Good then there is Evil.
B. If is statement "A" is True and there is all this Evil in the Show then God being Good has to show up.
My Previous post was a Response to the Counter Argument, were I say that Statement "A" cannot be proven true. You can't prove that God is Good and the devil evil, the term "good" and "evil" are just way to subjective. What's good for one can be evil for another, they have no finite definition. A point the Show loves to play with, by having (as far as we know) "Good Demons" & "Bad Angels", which I think most agree is what makes the show interesting. So saying that there is a source of "absolute good" and "Absolute Evil" is almost in defiance to what the show is trying to do.
I then attempted to Pre-empt, the next comment I get after I make my statements about "good" and "evil" being Undefinable they are essentially nonexistent out side the mind of the observer. (I'm a bit of existentialist, which is one of the reasons Lestat bored me to tears). I ususally recieve a response to the equivalent of "you can't have Good without Evil or Evil without Good". I was trying to say that by attempting to define "good" and "evil as the opposite of each other, is the illogical fallacy of circular reasoning. ie. Why is Shadow Good? Because she's not Evil. So How do you know Shadow isn't evil? Because she's Good. The reality is as you mentioned is I could be both. You are still of course left with the problem of What do you mean by "good"?
So I find the argument for Statement "A" to be illogical therefore Statement "B" becomes equally illogical (in my mind). Thats when I started to list the other directions the show could have gone in, that don't involve God or any other force of "ultimate good" in order to make my point that the inevitably of God showing up was not inevitable at all, at least not to me. And if you want to convince me otherwise you need a better argument. I also made that statement that the Winchesters were more then enough "Good" in the show to counteract the "evil", so God is just the 5th wheel in my opinion.
And the confusing statement that "If I try to be Good then I'm Evil." This was just to point out the paradox of if good and evil must exist at the same together in equilibrium. The logic is that for every "good" action I do an equal and opposite "evil" reaction must occur for there to be balance, and if I am aware that this "opposite reaction" will occur, I know that every time I do "Good" I'm also creating "Evil", therefore Doing a "good" thing can be seen as an act of "evil." I just found the muddliness of it all funny. I'm easily amused.
And then I tried to wrap up my post by saying we're just blurting out our opinions and assumptions, that doesn't make one idea better or worse then the other just different. So let just all be friends.
I hope that was less confusing, but I somehow doubt it. sorry.
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 04:48PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status: "Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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