Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning
Posted by sandscaper
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Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 20, 2008 11:05PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status: 
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 21, 2008 01:23PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status: 
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 23, 2008 01:03PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 23, 2008 02:40PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 25, 2008 01:35PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status:  |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning November 25, 2008 02:00PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 18, 2008 11:19AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Hello, I'd Thought I'd jump into the middle of the Conversation and add my Two cent's. I apologize I'm not used to this Forums' set up so I don't actually know Who's quoting whom here so I apologize if multiple individual points are being blended together.
I Completely and Totally Agree. I would love to see that conversation. I imagine it would end with Dean Flipping them the bird.
I'm not sure what "plot Holes" you are referring to, is there others besides the feeling angels your referring to.? (note: not trying to be mean, just curious) I'm going to Assume the "Weak" moment you are referring to is when Castiel Failed to Exorcise Allistair. (if not sorry). I just assumed this was due to the fact that Castiel is having Doubts about God or his mission and is suffered from performance anxiety.
Yeah thats a bit of a Toughie. Maybe it's not that they don't feel it's that they feel differently from humans. Yeah that doesn't make any sense. It's just one of those "sounds like a good idea", but incredibly hard to convey. I mean if Lucifer was an Angel then how could he feel pride, or what would drive Anna to "fall" if she didn't feel jealous or curious about humanity.
Rock On!
Ok two cents added.
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What part do humans play? We're the pawns. Hopefully the Winchesters will find those puppet strings and cut them (meaning GET RID OF RUBY AND CASTIEL FOR GOOD!) so they can take control of the game again. I think they're our only hope considering neither side seems to care whether "humans" survive the war.[/color]
I Completely and Totally Agree. I would love to see that conversation. I imagine it would end with Dean Flipping them the bird.
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The real problem I'm having with the storyline is the number of plotholes it seems to have. Others might see it as unanswered questions, but to me it's actual holes. Not sure how or if they'll be able to patch them. Which is disappointing.
The "warrior angels" thing, I get. Castiel just isn't much of a warrior to me. He's too weak. He contradicts himself every time he speaks. (am I seriously the ONLY one who didn't see "the look"? *sighs* whatever)
I'm not sure what "plot Holes" you are referring to, is there others besides the feeling angels your referring to.? (note: not trying to be mean, just curious) I'm going to Assume the "Weak" moment you are referring to is when Castiel Failed to Exorcise Allistair. (if not sorry). I just assumed this was due to the fact that Castiel is having Doubts about God or his mission and is suffered from performance anxiety.
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HOW can he hate if angels have no feelings? see? plothole.
Yeah thats a bit of a Toughie. Maybe it's not that they don't feel it's that they feel differently from humans. Yeah that doesn't make any sense. It's just one of those "sounds like a good idea", but incredibly hard to convey. I mean if Lucifer was an Angel then how could he feel pride, or what would drive Anna to "fall" if she didn't feel jealous or curious about humanity.
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To him and others like him, there is no gray. There is only blind faith and obedience. In that regard, give me demons any day.
Rock On!
Ok two cents added.|
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 18, 2008 04:57PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
I have to agree on the plot holes thing...Shadow by the way, I'm Sand...nice to meet you! New forum so its fun to have someone to discuss things with... As far as his stating that Angels have no feelings - I look at it this way, when in Rome...they have been exposed to humans for so long I think its only natural that there would be traits picked up - Look at Castiel, the more he is exposed to Dean the more Human he seems to me - thats how I see it anyway.
I think I am more interested in the question "Which angels" have seen God.... Honestly, I am leaning toward Castiel being one of them...he is getting his orders from somewhere and that hasnt been clarified....
another thought.... arent demons bad lower angels? Lucifer was gods favorite angel was he not? I guess I have to think that demons are the angels of Lucifer....is that a stretch? Clearly the lesser demons are afraid of the Angels - its an interesting hierarchy.....
I like the storyline - it seems to be a natural progression and what better way for the Angels to be taught a lesson in humanity than to expose them toi the Winchester boys - maybe thats Gods plan....
or I could be talkin out my butt
I think I am more interested in the question "Which angels" have seen God.... Honestly, I am leaning toward Castiel being one of them...he is getting his orders from somewhere and that hasnt been clarified....
another thought.... arent demons bad lower angels? Lucifer was gods favorite angel was he not? I guess I have to think that demons are the angels of Lucifer....is that a stretch? Clearly the lesser demons are afraid of the Angels - its an interesting hierarchy.....
I like the storyline - it seems to be a natural progression and what better way for the Angels to be taught a lesson in humanity than to expose them toi the Winchester boys - maybe thats Gods plan....
or I could be talkin out my butt
Smith & Wesson : The original point and click interface
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 18, 2008 05:19PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 12:50PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Hi Sand!
Ok I'm going to preform a bit of a cheat. I actually did a post on the CW forum about which and what angels I think have seen God so I just copied and pasted.
They were suggesting that Uriel may be one of the four cause he's an Arch Angel and not Castiel. I suppose it's possable Castiel has seen God, but why does he appear to be losing "Faith", well at least to me anyway. You could argue he's losing Faith in Gods Plan, but not necessarily God, but if Anna was higher up the chain of Commend as the show implied, then why didn't she see him. Who know, perhaps the Docter will show up at the last minute and save the day.
Well I took a look at the idea of 4 angel's from a purely Secular point of view. And I wouldn't know an Archangel from a Dominion if my Life depended an it. The whole of Angel lore is muddled and conflicting do to it's many Authors, but Who knows may be Uriel is one of the 4.
My thought process went like this.
Gabriel and Michael cause they're popular and people know who they are.
Metatron (formally Enoch) is like God's BFF. I mean I'm not an expert, but Enoch was taken to heaven and givin the name metatron, but he also had the name Yahoel which basically means Little Yehweh. It's a bit of a clue to Judiesm early polytheistic roots. So essentially if your going to toss in an angel this would be the one.
Sammael/Lucifer(don't know if the show will separate the two) well I think that would just be awsome. I mean one of the few Angels who doesn't need "Faith", to believe in God wants to take him out. I just think thats cool!
As for not Uriel...Well he hasn't mentioned it and he seems like a big enough loser that he would. This is just my opinion and it's biased. He threatened to kill Sam and I take that Very Very personally
Unfortunately we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on the Awesomeness of Angels on the Show. I think it was a step backwards. I don't need the show (or you
) to change. It's just not my favorite addition to the Supernatural Universe.
Now I'm not trying to pick on you Specifically, but I've heard lots of folks in Forums go on and on about Teaching someone a leasson, Dean, Castiel or Uriel. My big Question is Why must a leasson be learned. I recognize that philosphy of the Abrahamic Faiths tend to love using this, but perhaps the "God" in SN universie is more of a Deistic version of God. Ie he made the world and walked away. Or is so laissez-faire with everything he's not trying to teach just maintain the status quo.
Note: Seriously I'm not trying to A. Get into a fight or B. pick on your religion or theology. I'm a very nice person. Really I am. Seriously you should just believe me on that. ....Do you believe me yet? Why not I'm not lying to you. I'm fantastic human being.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2008 02:42PM by Shadow81.
Ok I'm going to preform a bit of a cheat. I actually did a post on the CW forum about which and what angels I think have seen God so I just copied and pasted.
They were suggesting that Uriel may be one of the four cause he's an Arch Angel and not Castiel. I suppose it's possable Castiel has seen God, but why does he appear to be losing "Faith", well at least to me anyway. You could argue he's losing Faith in Gods Plan, but not necessarily God, but if Anna was higher up the chain of Commend as the show implied, then why didn't she see him. Who know, perhaps the Docter will show up at the last minute and save the day.Well I took a look at the idea of 4 angel's from a purely Secular point of view. And I wouldn't know an Archangel from a Dominion if my Life depended an it. The whole of Angel lore is muddled and conflicting do to it's many Authors, but Who knows may be Uriel is one of the 4.
My thought process went like this.
Gabriel and Michael cause they're popular and people know who they are.
Metatron (formally Enoch) is like God's BFF. I mean I'm not an expert, but Enoch was taken to heaven and givin the name metatron, but he also had the name Yahoel which basically means Little Yehweh. It's a bit of a clue to Judiesm early polytheistic roots. So essentially if your going to toss in an angel this would be the one.
Sammael/Lucifer(don't know if the show will separate the two) well I think that would just be awsome. I mean one of the few Angels who doesn't need "Faith", to believe in God wants to take him out. I just think thats cool!
As for not Uriel...Well he hasn't mentioned it and he seems like a big enough loser that he would. This is just my opinion and it's biased. He threatened to kill Sam and I take that Very Very personally
Unfortunately we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on the Awesomeness of Angels on the Show. I think it was a step backwards. I don't need the show (or you
) to change. It's just not my favorite addition to the Supernatural Universe.Now I'm not trying to pick on you Specifically, but I've heard lots of folks in Forums go on and on about Teaching someone a leasson, Dean, Castiel or Uriel. My big Question is Why must a leasson be learned. I recognize that philosphy of the Abrahamic Faiths tend to love using this, but perhaps the "God" in SN universie is more of a Deistic version of God. Ie he made the world and walked away. Or is so laissez-faire with everything he's not trying to teach just maintain the status quo.
Note: Seriously I'm not trying to A. Get into a fight or B. pick on your religion or theology. I'm a very nice person. Really I am. Seriously you should just believe me on that. ....Do you believe me yet? Why not I'm not lying to you. I'm fantastic human being.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2008 02:42PM by Shadow81.
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 06:38PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Oh FRELL no ! lol...trust me I take no offense in opposing opinions! I also freely admit my religious knowledge is somewhat lacking...
I view this show as strictly entertainment and with that said I feel this way, there had to be more to the story than simply sending the boys out week after week huntin down monsters - otherwise, all you have is Gilligans island with zombies! and lets face it, even Dean couldnt eat that much coconut pie! LOL ( MATTIE !!!! Wheres our PIE smilie !! LOL )
I love Kripkes storytelling....yes I get fristrated from time to time with various characters, alive and dead. But its all part of being a fan of the show.
As far as what will happen only God [ well and Kripke ] knows.... but I do like a good debate and will promise to do my best to annoy the heck out of someone as "nice" as you
I view this show as strictly entertainment and with that said I feel this way, there had to be more to the story than simply sending the boys out week after week huntin down monsters - otherwise, all you have is Gilligans island with zombies! and lets face it, even Dean couldnt eat that much coconut pie! LOL ( MATTIE !!!! Wheres our PIE smilie !! LOL )
I love Kripkes storytelling....yes I get fristrated from time to time with various characters, alive and dead. But its all part of being a fan of the show.
As far as what will happen only God [ well and Kripke ] knows.... but I do like a good debate and will promise to do my best to annoy the heck out of someone as "nice" as you
Smith & Wesson : The original point and click interface
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 07:51PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
Quote
sandscaper
Oh FRELL no ! lol...trust me I take no offense in opposing opinions! I also freely admit my religious knowledge is somewhat lacking...
I view this show as strictly entertainment and with that said I feel this way, there had to be more to the story than simply sending the boys out week after week huntin down monsters - otherwise, all you have is Gilligans island with zombies! and lets face it, even Dean couldnt eat that much coconut pie! LOL ( MATTIE !!!! Wheres our PIE smilie !! LOL )
I love Kripkes storytelling....yes I get fristrated from time to time with various characters, alive and dead. But its all part of being a fan of the show.
As far as what will happen only God [ well and Kripke ] knows.... but I do like a good debate and will promise to do my best to annoy the heck out of someone as "nice" as you
First off ...hey Shadow! No we don't take offense that easily....I like the way the show is going and I agree with Sand..It would get boring if the boys just did the other hunts every week....I know how could I say that...but it kinda would and it's interesting now with the the whole religious topic.
One thing I do wonder about though is whether Mary knew the angels were around when she told Dean angels were watching over him when he was little....considering we now know she was hunter.
Never mind, I'll find someone like you
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 19, 2008 11:07PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Hello to you Sand & Ursala(FYI love the signature...poor chickens.)
Ok I'm glad I won't piss any of you off.
I'm creative person, and could honestly see the show still dealing with the Lucifer/Lillith Plot, without God and Angels showing up. But hey they're here now what are you gonna do.
When God first showed up I was more concerned that I'd have to deal with an All powerful, all loving, all knowing Super being with and ultimate plan. Now In my opinion that would be 100X more Boring than a monster of the Week.
Example
Season Finale
Lucifer: Hey God Give me Dominion over Heaven and Earth.
God: Since I'm an all knowing All powerful superbeing I knew you would escape and show up here so I created a trap door just under your feet and now you will be trapped in Hell...again.
God Pulls Lever
As he falls away Lucifer Yells
Lucifer: Curses! I would have gotten away with it if wasn't for those darn kids and your Ultimate Plan!
Lucifer falls down to hell again and wonders why there weren't more zombies on Gilligans island.
God goes back to crossword puzzle, not that it matters he knows all the answers anyway.
The previous scenario doesn't inovlve either a Sam or Dean and let's face it thats tragic.
Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case, God as far as I can tell is neither all knowing or all powerful, Something that both keeps things interesting and can still keep both parties happy...hopefully...maybe...ah heck someone's still gonna be ticked. Plus Castiel is starting to Grow on me. I think the show has started to take an interesting route and ask "What does it mean to be human?", but that could all be in my head.
Now Here is a funny Conundrum for you. Why would God Seal Satan away with 6000 Seals but you only have to break 66 of them to be free. In my mind thats like putting 100 Locks on a door and only needing to open 3 to get in. Once again God's logic is lost on me.
Forgot to talk about Mary and her Angels, I'd think it would be silly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she meant angels are watching you quite Literally. Oh and here's another random thought, not sure this is the best thread though, but I was suddenly struck as to why the Angels may want Dean, I know Uriel said that there were others. So, I thought What has Dean done that no others have? He killed Azazel. I'm wondering if the show (following hebrew tradition) has Azazel being one of the Rebellious Fallen Angels. Kinda like you have to kill an evil angel as some kind of prerequisite to killing Lucifer. Not sure why or how, but could be interesting.
Lillith Lillith Lillith
is her name forbidden?
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2008 11:31PM by Shadow81.
Ok I'm glad I won't piss any of you off.
I'm creative person, and could honestly see the show still dealing with the Lucifer/Lillith Plot, without God and Angels showing up. But hey they're here now what are you gonna do.
When God first showed up I was more concerned that I'd have to deal with an All powerful, all loving, all knowing Super being with and ultimate plan. Now In my opinion that would be 100X more Boring than a monster of the Week.
Example
Season Finale
Lucifer: Hey God Give me Dominion over Heaven and Earth.
God: Since I'm an all knowing All powerful superbeing I knew you would escape and show up here so I created a trap door just under your feet and now you will be trapped in Hell...again.
God Pulls Lever
As he falls away Lucifer Yells
Lucifer: Curses! I would have gotten away with it if wasn't for those darn kids and your Ultimate Plan!
Lucifer falls down to hell again and wonders why there weren't more zombies on Gilligans island.
God goes back to crossword puzzle, not that it matters he knows all the answers anyway.
The previous scenario doesn't inovlve either a Sam or Dean and let's face it thats tragic.
Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case, God as far as I can tell is neither all knowing or all powerful, Something that both keeps things interesting and can still keep both parties happy...hopefully...maybe...ah heck someone's still gonna be ticked. Plus Castiel is starting to Grow on me. I think the show has started to take an interesting route and ask "What does it mean to be human?", but that could all be in my head.
Now Here is a funny Conundrum for you. Why would God Seal Satan away with 6000 Seals but you only have to break 66 of them to be free. In my mind thats like putting 100 Locks on a door and only needing to open 3 to get in. Once again God's logic is lost on me.
Forgot to talk about Mary and her Angels, I'd think it would be silly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she meant angels are watching you quite Literally. Oh and here's another random thought, not sure this is the best thread though, but I was suddenly struck as to why the Angels may want Dean, I know Uriel said that there were others. So, I thought What has Dean done that no others have? He killed Azazel. I'm wondering if the show (following hebrew tradition) has Azazel being one of the Rebellious Fallen Angels. Kinda like you have to kill an evil angel as some kind of prerequisite to killing Lucifer. Not sure why or how, but could be interesting.
Lillith Lillith Lillith
is her name forbidden?
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2008 11:31PM by Shadow81.
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 23, 2008 12:53PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
Quote
Shadow81
Hello to you Sand & Ursala(FYI love the signature...poor chickens.)
Ok I'm glad I won't piss any of you off.
I'm creative person, and could honestly see the show still dealing with the Lucifer/Lillith Plot, without God and Angels showing up. But hey they're here now what are you gonna do.
When God first showed up I was more concerned that I'd have to deal with an All powerful, all loving, all knowing Super being with and ultimate plan. Now In my opinion that would be 100X more Boring than a monster of the Week.
Example
Season Finale
Lucifer: Hey God Give me Dominion over Heaven and Earth.
God: Since I'm an all knowing All powerful superbeing I knew you would escape and show up here so I created a trap door just under your feet and now you will be trapped in Hell...again.
God Pulls Lever
As he falls away Lucifer Yells
Lucifer: Curses! I would have gotten away with it if wasn't for those darn kids and your Ultimate Plan!
Lucifer falls down to hell again and wonders why there weren't more zombies on Gilligans island.
God goes back to crossword puzzle, not that it matters he knows all the answers anyway.
The previous scenario doesn't inovlve either a Sam or Dean and let's face it thats tragic.
Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case, God as far as I can tell is neither all knowing or all powerful, Something that both keeps things interesting and can still keep both parties happy...hopefully...maybe...ah heck someone's still gonna be ticked. Plus Castiel is starting to Grow on me. I think the show has started to take an interesting route and ask "What does it mean to be human?", but that could all be in my head.
Now Here is a funny Conundrum for you. Why would God Seal Satan away with 6000 Seals but you only have to break 66 of them to be free. In my mind thats like putting 100 Locks on a door and only needing to open 3 to get in. Once again God's logic is lost on me.
Forgot to talk about Mary and her Angels, I'd think it would be silly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she meant angels are watching you quite Literally. Oh and here's another random thought, not sure this is the best thread though, but I was suddenly struck as to why the Angels may want Dean, I know Uriel said that there were others. So, I thought What has Dean done that no others have? He killed Azazel. I'm wondering if the show (following hebrew tradition) has Azazel being one of the Rebellious Fallen Angels. Kinda like you have to kill an evil angel as some kind of prerequisite to killing Lucifer. Not sure why or how, but could be interesting.
Lillith Lillith Lillith
is her name forbidden?
Now thats interesting...I've given up thinking about the show and I'm trying to just go with the flow but yea the more you think about the more questions you have....Suppose thats just God for ya...confusing. I just hope we get answers to our questions...some of them anyway. I dunno I just can't take to Castiel for some reason...don't get me wrong he's a great character it's just I don't trust him much with regards to the boys.
Never mind, I'll find someone like you
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
|
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 24, 2008 12:42PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
I had a reply started the other day when my computer crashed. Which was probably a good thing since I think I was completely contradicting myself anyway.
Welcome Shadow! Nope, I doubt you offend anyone here. It's a pretty easy-going bunch (*glances around at the others* not one word about my temper!
)
I would point out more of the plotholes but can't think of any right at the moment. Pretty much any episode written by Jeremy Carver or the new writers this season are full of them though.
I think you've put far more thought into which angels have seen god than I have, but I'm 99% certain it wouldn't have been either Castiel or Uriel. Both worked for Anna prior to 1985 and she hadn't seen him, though she was higher ranked. And though it still looks to me like Uriel is higher than Castiel, they revealed he isn't. I think Uriel goes on his "faith" - which I still call blind obedience myself. But I guess if he hasn't seen god it would explain Castiel's "questioning."
I would be interested to know if Kripke is following along the lines of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series (the movie The Golden Compass was based on the first book). Interesting you mention Metatron. He's one of the characters in the books (and not a very good guy, though he is an angel). I don't want to give the ending of the trilogy away to anyone who hasn't read the books, but it is a very interesting (and completely different) view of angels and god than most people are used to. I highly recommend reading it.
Ula, I can't take to Castiel either - ok, that's putting it mildly. I can't stand him. And I certainly don't trust him. For me, he's Dean's equivalent of Ruby for Sam. The Winchesters don't need them and would be better off WITHOUT them.
(almost forgot to add - yep, it's forbidden here. I did that for Dean since the mention of that name.... well.... you can imagine)
Welcome Shadow! Nope, I doubt you offend anyone here. It's a pretty easy-going bunch (*glances around at the others* not one word about my temper!
)I would point out more of the plotholes but can't think of any right at the moment. Pretty much any episode written by Jeremy Carver or the new writers this season are full of them though.
I think you've put far more thought into which angels have seen god than I have, but I'm 99% certain it wouldn't have been either Castiel or Uriel. Both worked for Anna prior to 1985 and she hadn't seen him, though she was higher ranked. And though it still looks to me like Uriel is higher than Castiel, they revealed he isn't. I think Uriel goes on his "faith" - which I still call blind obedience myself. But I guess if he hasn't seen god it would explain Castiel's "questioning."
I would be interested to know if Kripke is following along the lines of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series (the movie The Golden Compass was based on the first book). Interesting you mention Metatron. He's one of the characters in the books (and not a very good guy, though he is an angel). I don't want to give the ending of the trilogy away to anyone who hasn't read the books, but it is a very interesting (and completely different) view of angels and god than most people are used to. I highly recommend reading it.
Ula, I can't take to Castiel either - ok, that's putting it mildly. I can't stand him. And I certainly don't trust him. For me, he's Dean's equivalent of Ruby for Sam. The Winchesters don't need them and would be better off WITHOUT them.
(almost forgot to add - yep, it's forbidden here. I did that for Dean since the mention of that name.... well.... you can imagine
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 25, 2008 10:26PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Quote
Mattie
I had a reply started the other day when my computer crashed. Which was probably a good thing since I think I was completely contradicting myself anyway.
Welcome Shadow! Nope, I doubt you offend anyone here. It's a pretty easy-going bunch (*glances around at the others* not one word about my temper!
I would point out more of the plotholes but can't think of any right at the moment. Pretty much any episode written by Jeremy Carver or the new writers this season are full of them though.
I think you've put far more thought into which angels have seen god than I have, but I'm 99% certain it wouldn't have been either Castiel or Uriel. Both worked for Anna prior to 1985 and she hadn't seen him, though she was higher ranked. And though it still looks to me like Uriel is higher than Castiel, they revealed he isn't. I think Uriel goes on his "faith" - which I still call blind obedience myself. But I guess if he hasn't seen god it would explain Castiel's "questioning."
I would be interested to know if Kripke is following along the lines of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series (the movie The Golden Compass was based on the first book). Interesting you mention Metatron. He's one of the characters in the books (and not a very good guy, though he is an angel). I don't want to give the ending of the trilogy away to anyone who hasn't read the books, but it is a very interesting (and completely different) view of angels and god than most people are used to. I highly recommend reading it.
Ula, I can't take to Castiel either - ok, that's putting it mildly. I can't stand him. And I certainly don't trust him. For me, he's Dean's equivalent of Ruby for Sam. The Winchesters don't need them and would be better off WITHOUT them.
(almost forgot to add - yep, it's forbidden here. I did that for Dean since the mention of that name.... well.... you can imagine
OK...first of all...you guys are being all "scholarific" *that could be a made up word - deal with it* and let me remind you both this is Kripke we are talkin about here.....
So with that said, let me blow your minds with this idea, my very first instinct was that Castiel was God.... what better way to know your angels than to walk among them? He took Dean back in time to view his past.....and of course, he did pull Dean out of hell - can all angels do that? If they can, I am sure there are others that deserve to come out of hell - look at John.... And if he had that power why didnt he kill the Demon he was up against? See I think he could have killed that demon but was giving Anna a chance to win her grace back.... Anna did say only 4 Angels had actually seen God....
ok..ok...I know this is out there but think about it, he wouldnt appear to Dean as God...that would make him crazy or worse yet religious which wouldnt serve any purpose...no...he has to appear in something that Dean can understand and well there are Demons so it wouldnt be too hard for Dean to accept an Angel - ok hard enough but easier than God Almighty appearing right?
I know its a longshot...but wouldnt it be just like Kripke to throw in this twist? Look, God gave us free will which is why we are in this situation to begin with but it doesnt mean he cant pop in and give people nudges here and there....
All right...I admit...I have been drinking eggnog *giggles* but still...you have to agree it would be an awesome twist....
oh and.... Merry Christmas girls !
Smith & Wesson : The original point and click interface
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 26, 2008 03:16AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Quote
sandscaper
OK...first of all...you guys are being all "scholarific" *that could be a made up word - deal with it* and let me remind you both this is Kripke we are talkin about here.....
It's ok to make up words, English is a progressive language.
Unfortunatly I can't help but be Scholarific, I come from a family that is just way too overeducated. 
Don't worry I know what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with a guy who said there wouldn't be angels in the show and then Bam! here they are so he's a big fat stinking doodoo head until he stops lying and or the Angels aren't angels but Evil-Super-Demons-from-the-Nether-World.tm
As for your Castiel=God Theory,it's one of the more interesting theories I've heard and I don't have any evidence against it, but you yourself admitted it was a long shot. I don't think we have any evidence of this all being a dream of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that Sam has been Lucifer since the end of Season 2. And this is where I become a Scholarific Buzzkill. Absence of Evidence is well Evidence of Absence. But who knows I've been horrifically wrong before.
And we all remember we are dealing with the Doodoo head and his Friends from the corporate office, I'm willing to bet the end will be far more straight forward then any of would like. so that means Sam get's possessed by Lucifer and Dean dies to save him and all humanity and will either be resurrected by God again, or turned into an infant or some kind of rebirth motif and Sam and Ruby (who god also restored her humanity) will live happily ever after or something.
Honestly I'd be happy if they defeated Lucifer and Dean said "Well that was fun, let's go get some pie." and they drove the impala off into the sunset"
and Happy Day after Present Day!
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 26, 2008 10:58AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
Quote
Mattie
I had a reply started the other day when my computer crashed. Which was probably a good thing since I think I was completely contradicting myself anyway.
Welcome Shadow! Nope, I doubt you offend anyone here. It's a pretty easy-going bunch (*glances around at the others* not one word about my temper!
I would point out more of the plotholes but can't think of any right at the moment. Pretty much any episode written by Jeremy Carver or the new writers this season are full of them though.
I think you've put far more thought into which angels have seen god than I have, but I'm 99% certain it wouldn't have been either Castiel or Uriel. Both worked for Anna prior to 1985 and she hadn't seen him, though she was higher ranked. And though it still looks to me like Uriel is higher than Castiel, they revealed he isn't. I think Uriel goes on his "faith" - which I still call blind obedience myself. But I guess if he hasn't seen god it would explain Castiel's "questioning."
I would be interested to know if Kripke is following along the lines of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series (the movie The Golden Compass was based on the first book). Interesting you mention Metatron. He's one of the characters in the books (and not a very good guy, though he is an angel). I don't want to give the ending of the trilogy away to anyone who hasn't read the books, but it is a very interesting (and completely different) view of angels and god than most people are used to. I highly recommend reading it.
Ula, I can't take to Castiel either - ok, that's putting it mildly. I can't stand him. And I certainly don't trust him. For me, he's Dean's equivalent of Ruby for Sam. The Winchesters don't need them and would be better off WITHOUT them.
(almost forgot to add - yep, it's forbidden here. I did that for Dean since the mention of that name.... well.... you can imagine
*laughs* Not a word...but you can keep it some what under control....sometimes. Ok I haven't read those but they sound good. Well it's actually funny to think the angels are no better off than the humans are...given that they never seen the big guy....thats good least I know I'm not the only one that doesn't trust him or her for that matter.
Sand thats a good one! I understand that, imagine, that would be huge twist and it makes sense in my head....yea I did think of that before, why was Dean saved and John or other good people? They have as a much right to be saved....but yea it's a bit stretched but it makes alot of sense! but then again Castiel is kinda questioning his beliefs.
Never mind, I'll find someone like you
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 26, 2008 11:10AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
Quote
Shadow81
Quote
sandscaper
OK...first of all...you guys are being all "scholarific" *that could be a made up word - deal with it* and let me remind you both this is Kripke we are talkin about here.....
It's ok to make up words, English is a progressive language.
Don't worry I know what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with a guy who said there wouldn't be angels in the show and then Bam! here they are so he's a big fat stinking doodoo head until he stops lying and or the Angels aren't angels but Evil-Super-Demons-from-the-Nether-World.tm
As for your Castiel=God Theory,it's one of the more interesting theories I've heard and I don't have any evidence against it, but you yourself admitted it was a long shot. I don't think we have any evidence of this all being a dream of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that Sam has been Lucifer since the end of Season 2. And this is where I become a Scholarific Buzzkill. Absence of Evidence is well Evidence of Absence. But who knows I've been horrifically wrong before.
And we all remember we are dealing with the Doodoo head and his Friends from the corporate office, I'm willing to bet the end will be far more straight forward then any of would like. so that means Sam get's possessed by Lucifer and Dean dies to save him and all humanity and will either be resurrected by God again, or turned into an infant or some kind of rebirth motif and Sam and Ruby (who god also restored her humanity) will live happily ever after or something.
Honestly I'd be happy if they defeated Lucifer and Dean said "Well that was fun, let's go get some pie." and they drove the impala off into the sunset"
and Happy Day after Present Day!
Yea thats worrying me! but I can't see them being able to kill Dean off....why save him if God has to pick up the pieces, why was he saved then? isn't he suppose to stop Sam before that happens? or can he? ok now I'm thinking too much....she died years ago though so I doubt she would get her humanity back, but I like to think, if Sam and Dean stick together (well they have through tough times before) that maybe it will demonstrate that families stick together and come out the other side...probably a bit damaged but hey how can be "normal" after all that.
They'd ruin the family plot then if Dean died but then again your theory could be good to show just how far the brothers will go for one another(but we know how far) we'll just be waiting for him to back again then, I know I would be....but I sware if he dies then it'll be a good job Kripke wouldn't be still playing God.
Never mind, I'll find someone like you
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 29, 2008 12:44PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
Quote
Shadow81
Don't worry I know what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with a guy who said there wouldn't be angels in the show and then Bam! here they are so he's a big fat stinking doodoo head until he stops lying and or the Angels aren't angels but Evil-Super-Demons-from-the-Nether-World.tm
I'm trying to come up with a 'scholarific' answer but that just cracks me up too much. (oh, and Sand, I'm pretty sure nearly all the words in the dictionary were once made up words too )Okay, seriously, I agree with you. More than once, EK has said things like "never say never" (as in his answers about whether Dean would really go to hell or not). If he had said that there, fine. But he didn't. Which leads me to believe we're NOT getting the story he originally envisioned. And THAT disappoints me more than anything.
Quote
Shadow81
As for your Castiel=God Theory,it's one of the more interesting theories I've heard and I don't have any evidence against it, but you yourself admitted it was a long shot. I don't think we have any evidence of this all being a dream of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that Sam has been Lucifer since the end of Season 2. And this is where I become a Scholarific Buzzkill. Absence of Evidence is well Evidence of Absence. But who knows I've been horrifically wrong before.
And we all remember we are dealing with the Doodoo head and his Friends from the corporate office, I'm willing to bet the end will be far more straight forward then any of would like. so that means Sam get's possessed by Lucifer and Dean dies to save him and all humanity and will either be resurrected by God again, or turned into an infant or some kind of rebirth motif and Sam and Ruby (who god also restored her humanity) will live happily ever after or something.
Honestly I'd be happy if they defeated Lucifer and Dean said "Well that was fun, let's go get some pie." and they drove the impala off into the sunset"
and Happy Day after Present Day!
Ummmmmm, no comment on the Castiel-as-god thing.
I'll just repeat myself - read the His Dark Materials trilogy. It has you wondering who's the good guy, who's the bad guy and just how and why do the "heroes" of the story fit into the overall scheme of good and evil. (in the case of the books, that would be the children, Lyra and Will) Sound familiar at all?
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 29, 2008 08:34PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Quote
Mattie
Okay, seriously, I agree with you. More than once, EK has said things like "never say never" (as in his answers about whether Dean would really go to hell or not). If he had said that there, fine. But he didn't. Which leads me to believe we're NOT getting the story he originally envisioned. And THAT disappoints me more than anything.
Ummmmmm, no comment on the Castiel-as-god thing.
I'll just repeat myself - read the His Dark Materials trilogy. It has you wondering who's the good guy, who's the bad guy and just how and why do the "heroes" of the story fit into the overall scheme of good and evil. (in the case of the books, that would be the children, Lyra and Will) Sound familiar at all?
I do agree with you there, the story has changed from his original vision but thats the creative process at work....anytime you rewrite something one small addition can change the outcome of your original story - you make a change here and oh yeah that affects what happens to this character 5 months from now which means you need to change this character to interact with that character...its a paradox I think.
We know for instance he didnt like the way things were going with the "special Kids" which led us to the town of the battle royale and Sams death...and Dean selling his soul...
when that storyline changed it took us in to season three and the writers strike and the addition of the "girls" which turned out badly. I think frankly he was wingin it and doing rewrites from that point on.
So here we are....
And yes...the line drawn between bad guys and good guys seems muddled. Hence the name of this thread. I guess thats why I wondered if God was showing his angels and maybe his demons the goodness of love, heart and bravery by exposing them to Dean and Sam. Yes I said his Demons. After all when you think about it they are arent they? Lucifer didnt create them he doesnt have the power of creation even for unnatural things - Plus I still think that most of the demons at least the higher eschalon were once angels - like Lucifer ... my opinion. The lower ones well, hard to say...I know Ruby told Dean a story of being tortured for hundreds of years before having the ability or earning the right or strength to crawl out of hell....but who knows.
No there is no proof - there is no right or wrong here
Time will tell girls..... I love the debate tho ! LOL
Smith & Wesson : The original point and click interface
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 30, 2008 10:10AM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 506 Status: |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 31, 2008 04:15AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Quote
Mattie
I don't mind that the line between good and bad is getting muddled. I like that part, in fact (and was dearly HOPING that Castiel would turn out to be something so horribly evil that it would have every demon and angel and supernatural creature that came into contact with it turning to dust from fear. no such luck there). I won't mind if "god" is trying to teach his angels a lesson; or if he wants them around the Winchesters to show them what they SHOULD be but are NOT. That has no affect on the myth-arc in my mind, it's just a subtext.
I personally want the line to be a lot Muddleierereer. (Hows that for a made up word!
) I've never read the "His Dark Materials" series I know most of the major plot twists though. And my BFF loves it. I'm reading the Twilight Series thought, I admit I like Vampires. I don't like Anne Rice though. Yeah, I said it; I don't like irritating Existential French Vampires, what of it. I really hope though that there isn't some Lessoned to be learned. It seems like a cheap ploy, but I guess it goes with the Touched by an Angel feel good vibe that Mass media likes to have. I admit I like things bleak and dark The Mist has one of my favorite endings.
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Mattie
What bothers me right now is the big picture. The angels are no longer a subtext, but have a direct effect on the outcome of the myth-arc. Which makes the story of the Winchesters suddenly second fiddle to the angels' battle of good vs. evil. (and the Winchesters themselves pawns, as I stated in the earlier post) When all is said and done and the series is over, I want to have a full, satisfied feeling like at the end of a good meal. I want to be able to say, "Now THAT was worth it!"
With this direction, I'm not getting that feeling.[/color]
I agree whole heartedly with you, I'm just not feeling the brotherly love this season. I mean God takes up a lot of space I mean it's a huge concept that nobody for all of human history has been able to agree on. It's just not always a good idea mess with it.
As for Creative Plot changes, yes they do happen. I have yet to be convinced that an apocalyptic end game with Angels and God was a good one. To be quite Honest it feels like a Drastic Change from the previous seasons, the Angel plot line came out of Left field (like the whole Deathly Hollows mess), it's just never a good sign.
Everything feels rushed and a bit Cut and Paste, like they wrote themselves into a corner and were like, Crap how do we get Dean out of Hell? Oh wait will have God do it. Maybe they're just worried they won't have a 5th Season. And I don't care how people try to spin it, Unless Kripke does something really inventive with "God" (like in the Dark Materials series) then it just feel like a...well a Deus ex Machina...a cheap ploy.
And this is my Fave show it was doing so well.Please God that doesn't exist, Don't let Supernatural Falter in the last Act, like Harry Potter and the Matrix. Please have mercy on us and on the whole world.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2008 04:17AM by Shadow81.
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning December 31, 2008 08:01PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 268 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 01, 2009 04:50PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 12:27PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
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sandscaper
Oh Lordy Lordy! Save me from these heathen views! lol ok...Where to start...deep breath....*grins*
*grins back*
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sandscaper
She is an exquisite writer who allows the reader to envision her words....truly, I loved reading her books*
Don't worry I never said she wasn't a good writer or that others can't like her. If it makes you feel better I don't like Andy Warhol, Samuel Beckett, or Tupac and I'm told they're brilliant too. It doesn't matter how good the painter is if I don't like the style or how the subject is handled I ain't going to buy it.
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sandscaper
OK enough of that....
agreed.
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sandscaper
The argument is too strong...if there is such evil then there should be such good.
Ok I'm might end up regretting this, but since y'all seem like reasonable folk I'll risk it. First and foremost, nothing personal and yes I know it's a just TV show and I should lighten up.
"If there is Good then there must be Evil." is a lousy argument and a logical fallacy(I'm not calling you lousy just the argument). The Concepts of Good and Evil are just too subjective. Your just self confirming subjective words when you treat them as polar opposites. Why is "A" Good, cause it's not Evil. So Why is "A" not Evil, cause it's Good. Just saying Good=Good and Evil=Evil tells me nothing about the nature of either of them. I've heard some argue that you need "Balance". I think that creates a icky paradox, because no one should strive to be "Good". If I work hard to be "Good", but I know that doing so will create "Evil" is doing "Good" an "Evil" act?
I mean we seem to agree that Muddled is "Good", But using Muddled terms for as evidence for an argument is "Bad"...see muddled.
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sandscaper
I know you both know these facts but seriously what would you have Kripke do at this point? Have a demon save Dean? Let Dean claw his way out of hell when he himself admits he was on the verge of insanity?
Here are a couple Ideas I had running around my silly head before the beginning of Season 4
-Sam goes bodily into hell to pull dean out ala Hercules and what not, as far the body not rotting. F. M. (Freaking Magic)
-Sam makes a deal with Lilith to resurrect his brother, but instead of his Soul a year later he has to be her psychic henchmen. Driving him to have to kill her or serve her by the end of the season, This was a personal fave of mine actually.
-Demonic Civil war. Lilith wanted Dean dead, but another demonic factions hates Lilith so they resurrect Dean to piss her off ( one of my weaker ideas admittedly)
-Anything with the trickster, I think the character is Freaking Awesome and I want to see more of him.
-An idea that briefly crossed my mind, after the first episodes (but later dashed), is that Angels like Demons were once human. No God or Lucifer necessary, just opposition and our poor boys in the middle.
I list these not to call Kripke unimaginative, but to simply point out that there were other directions to go in and in my biased opinion more original.
But my opinions don't matter to anyone, but me and they don't affect the show nor should they affect your viewing of it, like my dislike of Anne Rice shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of her writing. Opinions are full of Sound and fury, signifying nothing. The show has God in it, I'm tolerating.
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sandscaper
No...this had to be girls....I tell you - we needed to see that there was at least a counterpoint...a light at the end of the tunnel.
Which in my mind has and hopefully always will be the Brothers themselves. Though unobligated they still fought for humanity, and they always had their love for each other to get through the "darkness". As a viewer That was more then enough "Good" for me, so I see God as a useless addition.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2009 12:54PM by Shadow81.
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 12:58PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
Quote
Shadow81
Ok I'm might end up regretting this, but since y'all seem like reasonable folk I'll risk it. First and foremost, nothing personal and yes I know it's a just TV show and I should lighten up.
"If there is Good then there must be Evil." is a lousy argument and a logical fallacy. The Concepts of Good and Evil are just too subjective. Your just self confirming subjective words when you treat them as polar opposites. Why is "A" Good, cause it's not Evil. So Why is "A" not Evil, cause it's Good. Just saying Good=Good and Evil=Evil tells me nothing about the nature of either of them. I've heard some argue that you need "Balance". I think that creates a icky paradox, because no one should strive to be "Good". If I work hard to be "Good", but I know that doing so will create "Evil" is doing "Good" an "Evil" act?
I mean we seem to agree that Muddled is "Good", But using Muddled terms for as evidence for an argument is "Bad"...see muddled.
Which in my mind has and hopefully always will be the Brothers themselves. Though unobligated they still fought for humanity, and they always had their love for each other to get through the "darkness". As a viewer That was more then enough "Good" for me, so I see God as a useless addition.
Ok ya got me confused now. If you ask me there is a bit of evil in everyone but with regards to the show and their demons they just have more evil in them. Yes it's good to have balance, no need to strive to be good just good enough to realise whats right and wrong...I can see how working to be good can have negative effects though. Being "good" doesn't mean you have to do everything right....I mean look at Dean on the show, theres bad points to him but he's still "good" because he does fight against "evil". This topic could go on forever and we'd still say the same things
Never mind, I'll find someone like you
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
|
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 03:02PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
Quote
Ursula
Ok ya got me confused now. If you ask me there is a bit of evil in everyone but with regards to the show and their demons they just have more evil in them.s
My goal wasn't to confuse anyone, but I admit when it comes to describing abstract concepts I'm a better student then teacher. The main purpose of the post was to respond to the common arguments I have received here and in other places about my opinion about God being an active character in the Supernatural Universe.
To boil it down.
I state the opinion that adding God to the show was uninspired and an overall bad idea. I then try to give evidence for the reasons I believe this, not always successfully.
Folks often respond with the Following Counter Argument,adding God to the Show was fantastic, but also inevitable. And I tend to receive Two Common evidentiary points for this.
A. If there is Good then there is Evil.
B. If is statement "A" is True and there is all this Evil in the Show then God being Good has to show up.
My Previous post was a Response to the Counter Argument, were I say that Statement "A" cannot be proven true. You can't prove that God is Good and the devil evil, the term "good" and "evil" are just way to subjective. What's good for one can be evil for another, they have no finite definition. A point the Show loves to play with, by having (as far as we know) "Good Demons" & "Bad Angels", which I think most agree is what makes the show interesting. So saying that there is a source of "absolute good" and "Absolute Evil" is almost in defiance to what the show is trying to do.
I then attempted to Pre-empt, the next comment I get after I make my statements about "good" and "evil" being Undefinable they are essentially nonexistent out side the mind of the observer. (I'm a bit of existentialist, which is one of the reasons Lestat bored me to tears). I ususally recieve a response to the equivalent of "you can't have Good without Evil or Evil without Good". I was trying to say that by attempting to define "good" and "evil as the opposite of each other, is the illogical fallacy of circular reasoning. ie. Why is Shadow Good? Because she's not Evil. So How do you know Shadow isn't evil? Because she's Good. The reality is as you mentioned is I could be both. You are still of course left with the problem of What do you mean by "good"?
So I find the argument for Statement "A" to be illogical therefore Statement "B" becomes equally illogical (in my mind). Thats when I started to list the other directions the show could have gone in, that don't involve God or any other force of "ultimate good" in order to make my point that the inevitably of God showing up was not inevitable at all, at least not to me. And if you want to convince me otherwise you need a better argument.
I also made that statement that the Winchesters were more then enough "Good" in the show to counteract the "evil", so God is just the 5th wheel in my opinion.And the confusing statement that "If I try to be Good then I'm Evil." This was just to point out the paradox of if good and evil must exist at the same together in equilibrium. The logic is that for every "good" action I do an equal and opposite "evil" reaction must occur for there to be balance, and if I am aware that this "opposite reaction" will occur, I know that every time I do "Good" I'm also creating "Evil", therefore Doing a "good" thing can be seen as an act of "evil." I just found the muddliness of it all funny. I'm easily amused.
And then I tried to wrap up my post by saying we're just blurting out our opinions and assumptions, that doesn't make one idea better or worse then the other just different.
So let just all be friends. 
I hope that was less confusing, but I somehow doubt it. sorry.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
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Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 04:03PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,875 Status:
"I punched that damn leprechaun back." |
Quote
Shadow81
Quote
Ursula
Ok ya got me confused now. If you ask me there is a bit of evil in everyone but with regards to the show and their demons they just have more evil in them.s
My goal wasn't to confuse anyone, but I admit when it comes to describing abstract concepts I'm a better student then teacher. The main purpose of the post was to respond to the common arguments I have received here and in other places about my opinion about God being an active character in the Supernatural Universe.
To boil it down.
I state the opinion that adding God to the show was uninspired and an overall bad idea. I then try to give evidence for the reasons I believe this, not always successfully.
Folks often respond with the Following Counter Argument,adding God to the Show was fantastic, but also inevitable. And I tend to receive Two Common evidentiary points for this.
A. If there is Good then there is Evil.
B. If is statement "A" is True and there is all this Evil in the Show then God being Good has to show up.
My Previous post was a Response to the Counter Argument, were I say that Statement "A" cannot be proven true. You can't prove that God is Good and the devil evil, the term "good" and "evil" are just way to subjective. What's good for one can be evil for another, they have no finite definition. A point the Show loves to play with, by having (as far as we know) "Good Demons" & "Bad Angels", which I think most agree is what makes the show interesting. So saying that there is a source of "absolute good" and "Absolute Evil" is almost in defiance to what the show is trying to do.
I then attempted to Pre-empt, the next comment I get after I make my statements about "good" and "evil" being Undefinable they are essentially nonexistent out side the mind of the observer. (I'm a bit of existentialist, which is one of the reasons Lestat bored me to tears). I ususally recieve a response to the equivalent of "you can't have Good without Evil or Evil without Good". I was trying to say that by attempting to define "good" and "evil as the opposite of each other, is the illogical fallacy of circular reasoning. ie. Why is Shadow Good? Because she's not Evil. So How do you know Shadow isn't evil? Because she's Good. The reality is as you mentioned is I could be both. You are still of course left with the problem of What do you mean by "good"?
So I find the argument for Statement "A" to be illogical therefore Statement "B" becomes equally illogical (in my mind). Thats when I started to list the other directions the show could have gone in, that don't involve God or any other force of "ultimate good" in order to make my point that the inevitably of God showing up was not inevitable at all, at least not to me. And if you want to convince me otherwise you need a better argument.
And the confusing statement that "If I try to be Good then I'm Evil." This was just to point out the paradox of if good and evil must exist at the same together in equilibrium. The logic is that for every "good" action I do an equal and opposite "evil" reaction must occur for there to be balance, and if I am aware that this "opposite reaction" will occur, I know that every time I do "Good" I'm also creating "Evil", therefore Doing a "good" thing can be seen as an act of "evil." I just found the muddliness of it all funny. I'm easily amused.
And then I tried to wrap up my post by saying we're just blurting out our opinions and assumptions, that doesn't make one idea better or worse then the other just different.
I hope that was less confusing, but I somehow doubt it. sorry.
No thats alot better...it's less confusing. I do get why you said all that....how do actually know who is "good" you can't really define "good" or "evil" well not until you pointed that all out to me.
I know the show could of taken a different direction but I don't think for, me, It wouldn't of been as believable...there was no other way to get Dean out but I think they should of just left it at that. I mean how was Sam supposed to get Dean out? after all he was working with Ruby? and whos to say that she wanted Dean out? I doubt the Demons would of released Dean even if Sam made a deal...then it would be back to same problem, Sam would be in trouble. The trickster wouldn't have fitted in either though because it would be kinda stupid if the boys didn't realise they were being fooled again. I just feel it was better to go this direction but thats just me. They probably shouldn't have went this far with it but it's done now.
I can see what you mean by that too...but not every "good" action can be resulted in an "evil" one thats not what I was getting at when I said balance though some do result in "evil"...I mean for instance, people can have a little "bad" and "good" in them. Having too much of one thing is never better. Most of the demons have more "bad" in them where as most humans in the show that we've seen have more "good" but they have a balance of "good" and "bad" for example, Dean lusting after women but fighting for whats right, John bringing up Sam and Dean as some sort of soliders and still acting towards "good"
*laughs* nobody is falling out with you at all and I do understand what you ment...I just never thought of the show that much....now I am and I can see the difference in the opinions which is making me borderline to them.
Never mind, I'll find someone like you
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
I wish nothing but the best for you
Don't forget me, I beg
I remember you said,
"Sometimes it lasts in love but sometimes it hurts instead."
|
Re: Bad Angels, good demons.....my head is spinning January 02, 2009 04:48PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 43 Status:
"Oops. That leprechaun punched me real hard." |
If it's any consolation until God showed up I didn't have to think about the show that much either.
I mean here I was happy go lucky watching a show with hot guys hunting monsters, I had my popcorn and was good to go. Yeah, why does holy water work, exocrsims in latin, EMF, EVP etc. I just attributed to F.M. and thought nothing more on it. Sure the show talked about faith but still attempted to show two sides, you know hey whatever, I know I'm the minority just roll my eyes and move on 
and then all of sudden (to me at least) it was "I am an Angel of the Lord!"
I then go to the CW Forum, cause I'm the opinionated type, and I was like "boohoo that sucks" and proceeded to stomp my feet and pout. I was looking for hug or a kind word, all I got was "OMG how can you not love it! It's so obvious how wrong you are" granted there was a minority that was very understanding, but I emphasize the word minority.
And Just so no one thinks I'm a weirdo who thinks about philosophy & religion all day. When I told people I was an atheist, I found my self suddenly attacked from all sides so I had to become an amateur Scholar in Philosophy, Religion, Theology, Evolution, Scientific method, and debate tactics. So I'm not a weird anti-God Freak, I'm just used to having to over defend my position. Seriously love y'all. Hugs all round.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2009 05:11PM by Shadow81.
I mean here I was happy go lucky watching a show with hot guys hunting monsters, I had my popcorn and was good to go. Yeah, why does holy water work, exocrsims in latin, EMF, EVP etc. I just attributed to F.M. and thought nothing more on it.
Sure the show talked about faith but still attempted to show two sides, you know hey whatever, I know I'm the minority just roll my eyes and move on and then all of sudden (to me at least) it was "I am an Angel of the Lord!" I then go to the CW Forum, cause I'm the opinionated type, and I was like "boohoo that sucks" and proceeded to stomp my feet and pout. I was looking for hug or a kind word, all I got was "OMG how can you not love it! It's so obvious how wrong you are" granted there was a minority that was very understanding, but I emphasize the word minority.And Just so no one thinks I'm a weirdo who thinks about philosophy & religion all day. When I told people I was an atheist, I found my self suddenly attacked from all sides so I had to become an amateur Scholar in Philosophy, Religion, Theology, Evolution, Scientific method, and debate tactics. So I'm not a weird anti-God Freak, I'm just used to having to over defend my position. Seriously love y'all. Hugs all round.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
-Carl Sagan
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2009 05:11PM by Shadow81.
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